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I have watched those great YouTube videos about the AA-12 for about a year, and I kept wanting a more exact answer if I could legally own an AA-12 fully automatic shotgun, and if so, what is the price of an AA-12?From Western Firearms Company: In 1986, the United States government banned the future importation and domestic manufacture of machine guns for civilian consumption, and the already limited inventory of Class 3 weapons has since diminished substantially. At a rate now more accelerated than ever, these weapons are ending up in the hands of collectors who have no intention of ever selling them. The effect is twofold: Class 3 arms are growing increasingly scarce, and their prices are rising accordingly. Further Federal bans in 1989 and 1994 relating to semiautomatic clones of military weapons have spurred similar trends in that arena as well. Thus, the price of a quality, collector-grade Class 3 or semiautomatic weapon has spiraled beyond the comprehension of the average buyer.Mr.
Jerry Babar, President/CEO of Military Police Systems, Inc. (MPS, Inc.) of Piney Flats, Tennessee and developer of the AA-12 Shotgun, kindly answered my questions today, 23 Feb 2009, which I transcribed (possibly with some minor errors) as follows: 'I am returning your call about the AA-12. By the 1986 Federal law, any machine guns made prior to 19 May 1986 are transferable, and there are 400,000 legal machine guns in the United States.
Famed AA-12 Shotgun is Now Available for Civilian Consumption. Melbourne, FL –-(Ammoland.com)-Sol Invictus Arms with Tactical Superiority, Inc. Is proud to announce the release of the AA-12. SALE: Chinese SKS Type 56 Rifles - $299.99. Customer Service. Kalashnikov USA KS12 12GA 10rd Magazine Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun W/ FDE Furniture and Side Folding / Collapsible Stock - KS-12TSFSFDE. (12) Legacy Sports (37) Linyi Junxing Cheetah (3) LKCI (8) Marlin (2) Maverick Arms (3) Midland Arms.
Any machine guns made after 19 May 1986 are not transferable to civilians and cannot be built by or owned (inaudible) by civilians. And in fact, if I ever get my license up, I can assure you that I can't even have them AA-12's.
I can't keep them in stock or transfer them, or somebody will have my license. There are 19, almost 20 AA-12 guns built right now and they are with various military operations for evaluation, and they are involved with some of the manufacture of them AA-12's. Watch the Military Channel in June 2009 for the new Robot video that we just did. It is a really good 20-30 minute video. It will be under the 'Ultimate Weapons' program.
Also, the New Yorker magazine has a six page article on us. I appreciate you for calling. Thanks alot.' Babar is a very nice and a very smart man. I appreciate that Mr. Babar returned my call while I was away.has collected some excellent text about Mr.
Jerry Babar:Finally in 1987, Max Atchisson, broke and in danger of losing everything, sold the rights to the AA-12 to Mr. Jerry Baber, of MPS, Inc., in Tennessee. A brilliant engineer with a long history in the firearms business, Baber is also one of the world's foremost experts in high-precision cast steel parts. Along with his partner, Boje Corneal, an equally talented German mechanical engineer, Jerry Baber began production of a small number of pre-production samples of the AA-12 for test purposes using Atchisson's drawings.During the interim, Baber and Corneal had businesses to operate, and Jerry Baber made parts for 39 gun companies at his B&H Precision foundry. In spite of their full schedules, Baber and Corneal continued work on the AA-12, finding more problems at each step of the way. Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns.
I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. With the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR.
Jus my humble opinions. Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns. I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. With the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR.
Jus my humble opinions. I don't think the AA-12 will ever go to far.
It is too big and bulky.Agreed. They claim it can be fired from a HMMWV. Well so can an M2, but it isn't exactly ergonomic. The individual soldier is going to be limited on the number of mags that can be carried simply on the bulk of the mags.It also states that it 'fills a void' but I have to ask if maybe that void exists for a reason.I don't see it changing much of anything. You have a quick firing shotgun that can be reloaded quickly. It still suffers from limited range, and that quick firing isn't supported by the limitation on the amount of ammo that can be carried.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere.
But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. Those several YouTube videos about the AA12 really show just what void in our combat capability needs to be filled. A picture is worth a thousand words.Those 3' FRAG 12 shotgun shells explode with about an 18 foot sphere of shrapnel. The AA12 is a large bore weapon that is designed to have virtually no recoil. The AA12 has virtually no muzzle rise, so it stays on target each time and every time. In the video you can sense what is happening inside the room when 20 of these FRAG 12's fly 120 yards in through the small window one right after the other, all exploding within 4 seconds.
And the FRAG 12's fly true for up to 175 meters, extending the range of what was thought possible for a shotgun, and they explode with genuine ferociousness.And that is the void the AA12 and the FRAG 12 combo fills. The AA12 is a force multiplier. Soldiers with AA12's will have the advantage in accurate firepower when enemies try to shoot it out with them.The FRAG 12's can explode on impact or explode at a pre-determined distance by setting a fuse/timer. So a soldier with an AA12 and FRAG 12 drums could spray an arc with FRAG 12's that rain down shrapnel, for example, at 80 yards or 100 yards or 120 yards or 150 yards.
Enemies trying to rush a soldier may try to hide behind objects, but they will have to hide under something also, or they will expire. One of our soldiers could control large areas of real estate with an AA12 and some drums of FRAG 12's. There are also armor piercing FRAG 12's.And remember, Mr. Jerry Babar has already demonstrated these AA12 and FRAG 12 combos mounted on his unmanned robotic AutoCopter Gunships for Blackwater, as the Ultimate Weapons program on the Military Channel in June 2009 will show.Jerry Babar said, 'Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world. There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it.
He just cannot do it. There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path.'
The AA12 is made from 7 types of stainless steel, making it practically maintenance and lubrication free. The fine carbon residue from firing settles everywhere in the gun, and it lubricates everything moving. This carbon is never cleaned. And the AA12 has big beefy parts, big heavy-duty parts to last without maintenance. The AA12 has the ability to operate in all weather extremes, from the Arctic environment to high salt content areas to jungles, to not even being affected if it were dropped in the ocean and used later on. The AA12 CQB model with the 13' barrel has the same 33' length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds.
That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 '00' buckshot pellets in 4 seconds. Here is what the marketers are doing with the AA-12 linkage, the Frag 12 can be fired from any shotgun. A S-12 with a barrel Comp and a Topmaul Buffer pad will have a lower recoil than without, still had a recoil but at 1/5 the price. I believe the void exists because of the slow loading ability of the tradutional shotgun and I don't feel the AA-12 and solved that problem due to the way a fresh magazine is loaded, maybe that problem can be solved with training not sure.Just don't see the linkage between ammunition any shotgun can shoot and a perticular shotgun. Unless future weapons did not have enough for an epsidode so they combined the two to make the segment in the program.
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How isn't the void for something that makes an 18' shrapnel area filled by the MK 19?It doesn't. The XM29 was a 20mm grenade launcher.
All kinds of super trooper stuff. And it was pretty much left to wither. Part of the reason was that a 20mm GL just isn't that impressive. And those rounds were intended to do a lot more than the 12ga HE rounds.So if it couldn't make it, I don't see how this will.It is still a shotgun. It still suffers from relatively short range.
It still has bulky ammunition that limits the amount that can be carried.Within a narrow niche, it is great. But it is filling a void that isn't much in demand and still has a lot of downside to it.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. M24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr. Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week.
I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.I just realized something today. Ever since 1972, the AA-12 has been designed to be a military shotgun only. Since 1987, Mr. Jerry Babar has worked to get the AA-12 operating perfectly, and he succeeded in 2004.
It occured to me that years ago, Mr. Babar could have quit his determination to perfect this fully automatic shotgun that only the military can have. Babar could have instead sold it to the public as a semi-automatic shotgun. Babar himself cannot even own or stock or transfer any AA-12's due to the 1986 federal law banning the transfer to civilians of imported or domestically manufactured machine guns made after 19 May 1986.It seems to me that Mr. Babar has an all or nothing determination to get the AA-12 accepted by the military procurement system because he is a true American patriot and he wants to save American lives.
And he genuinely believes that the AA-12 and the FRAG 12's were made for each other.Obviously the FRAG 12's can also be fired from any other 3' chambered shotgun, which is good. And the Saiga-12 is a very dependable semi-automatic Kalashnikov shotgun. If we ever go to war with Russia, we will undoubtedly face a few of the Saiga-12's. Babar is now in his 70's. I hope that Mr.
Babar realizes his dream of getting his AA-12's in the hands of American soldiers. This Kentuckian admires the man from Piney Flats, Tennessee.I think that Blackwater admires Mr.
Blackwater uploaded the video to YouTube. M24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr.
Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week.
I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.I have no doubt that they might have some utility. And the safety certification is one step in the process; it can have that certification but that does not in itself indicate that it should be fielded.To say the AA12 is filling a void is a little bit of a stretch. Kind of like someone marketing a titanium boarding axe by saying it fills a void in current military hardware. Is there a reason that void is there? While it would be useful in at least some applications it is a niche weapon.
It is still a shotgun. It still has some of the same limitations as other shotguns. Baber has.a remote-control mini-helicopter called the AutoCopter, which holds two AA-12's and can carry the robots into battle. 'It delivers the lead equivalent of 132 M16s,' says Baber.A weapon that will fire 20 x #4 Buckshot 12 gauge shells in 4 seconds while spraying 540.24 caliber pellets is bringing the smoke.The AA12 CQB model with the 13' barrel has the same 33' length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds. That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 '00' buckshot pellets in 4 seconds.Jerry Babar said, 'Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world.
There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it. He just cannot do it.
There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path.' We have tens of thousands of Benelli M1014 Combat shotguns, and Remington M870 and Mossberg 500/590 shotguns in service that are far less effective than the AA-12. There are twenty AA-12's being evaluated right now by various military operations. But replacing pump and semi-automatic shotguns was never what I thought could be replaced or supplemented by the fully automatic AA-12 - it is the M249 SAW. Before anyone bursts a vein, read below and consider the current efforts by the Marine Corps and the Army to reduce the weight of the SAW, and that the M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds.
The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.The AA-12 needs no barrel changes to control heat. A single AA-12 has fired over 5000 shells without lubrication, cleaning, or maintaintenance. The cyclic rate of the AA-12 is 300 shells per minute. The man in takes his time and still fires two 20 shell drums and three 8 shell magazines, totaling 64 shells in less than a minute. If he had used five 20 shell drums, he could have fired 100 shells in less than one minute.That would be 2700.24 caliber #4 buckshot pellets fired in one minute from the AA-12, compared to 85.223 caliber/5.56mm rounds per minute of sustained fire from the M249 SAW. That is 3% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery. Even if a SAW could fire its cyclic rate of 750 rounds per minute without barrel failure, that would only be 25% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery.So Long, SAW?
By Matthew Cox of The Marine Corps Times, 15 Sep 2008,Marine infantry units soon may replace their light machine guns with new automatic rifles designed to help gunners move faster on assaults. The plan is to buy 4,100 IARs and reduce the number of SAWs in the Corps from 10,000 to 8,000.Weapons officials at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., are testing magazine-fed weapons from at least six gun makers in a search for a lighter alternative to the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, which weighs close to 17 pounds unloaded.
At the squad level, “the biggest hindrance to being able to effectively fire and maneuver is the weight of the SAW,” said Patrick Cantwell, capability integration officer for the Infantry Automatic Rifle program at SysCom.The winning IAR design — which the Corps wants to weigh no more than 12.5 pounds — could begin replacing the SAW in infantry squads as early as next year. “We see this being the automatic rifleman’s primary weapon,” Cantwell said. “We obviously want it as soon as possible, but we are looking at sometime in 2009.” The M249 has been in service with the Corps since the mid-1980s. The standard model weighs about 22 pounds when loaded with a 200-round belt of 5.56mm ammunition.Despite its weight, the weapon spits out up to 750 rounds per minute, providing small units with a tremendous rate of sustained automatic fire. Note: the M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute.Currently, Marine and Army infantry squads equip their fire teams with one M249 each. The difference is that Marine squads have three fire teams, and Army squads have two fire teams, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of the Infantry Center’s Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Georgia.
“It’s really all about firepower. The Marine Corps has a 13-man squad; we have a nine-man squad — that’s a four-man difference.”Army infantry officials, however, do want to find a replacement for the M249. “We recognize that we need to find another solution for the light machine gun in the squad,” Radcliffe said. One option for replacing the SAW could be the MK46 — a newer version of the M249 with the same cyclic rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute and a reduced weight of 15.4 pounds unloaded, which was adopted by U.S. Special Operations Command in 2000.
The standard model M249 SAW weighs 16.8 pounds unloaded. The paratrooper model M249 SAW weighs 15.95 pounds unloaded.The Marine Corps has been talking about the need for a lightweight IAR since 2001.
One of the biggest changes Marine gunners will notice about the IAR is that it’s magazine-fed only, compared with the M249’s belted ammunition. The M249 also can fire standard-issue magazines. Early on in the program, the requirement called for the IAR to use detachable, 100-round magazines. Now, Marine weapons officials are requiring only that it be able to run on the same 30-round magazines infantrymen use in their M16A4 rifles and M4 carbines.Army infantry officials maintain that switching from a 200-round belt to a 30-round magazine would cause Army squads to lose the high rate of fire they have with the M249. “Volume of fire is important,” Radcliffe said.
“The Marine Corps thinks it can get that out of a magazine-fed weapon. We don’t think the Army can.”The M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes, Cantwell said.Unlike the M249 — which relies on a quick-change, spare barrel to keep the heat down — the IAR will have no spare barrel, Cantwell said. It will rely on the slower rate of fire and other features to manage the heat.
Cantwell conceded that “there is a sacrifice of the volume of fire,” but the ability to move fast and fire accurately outweighs it. With the IAR, “you have a more maneuverable weapon that, we hope, allows the Marine gunner to be more effective.”To my way of thinking, the AA-12 is lighter, is more manueverable, is as accurate, has the same effective CQB range, and has four to thirty times more sustainable on target lead delivery as the M249 SAW, the MK46 or the IAR. Plus the AA-12 can fire 20 High Explosive FRAG 12 grenades through one window in four seconds. Sorry, but the idea of replacing the SAW with a shotgun is one of the most insane things I think I've ever heard.First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role.
What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street? Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines.
And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.Third, armor penetration.
How well does #4 buck penetrate armor?Fourth, barrier penetration. How well does #4 penetrate car doors, auto glass, or light cover?Fifth, terminal ballistics. How does #4 compare to 5.56 at ranges beyond 25-30 yards?
Let's go up to 00. How does it compare?Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.Supplementing/replacing the current inventory of shotguns with the AA12 was one thing. Replacing the SAW with it is something else entirely.I think you've bought into the hype and marketing a little too much.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere.
But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role. What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street?
Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?I have read somewhere on this forum that very few infantry CQB shots are kill shots past 100 yards. The AA-12 is accurate to 175 meters with the FRAG 12's and good sights. (I am not stepping on that EOTech/Aimpoint/Trijicon mine again.) Because the AA-12 has 10% of the recoil of other shotguns, and virtually no muzzle rise, it can fire a stream of 20 FRAG 12's through a window of that building down the street faster than calling the BGs cell phone number.' Shotgun' is somewhat of a misnomer for the AA-12.
After all, slugs are simply large bore bullets. With an improved cylinder choke, the AA-12 can fire Brenneke slugs accurately to about 60 yards. With a rifled choke, the AA-12 should easily be accurate to over 100 yards with Remington Core-Lokt sabots (which have taken deer with one shot at 175 yards).
I am NOT suggesting that the AA-12 be used as a fully automatic slug gun at intermediate distances. The M16 is for intermediate distances. I am simply reminding readers that a variety of shotgun shell ammunition for various distances and purposes can be carried for the AA-12. For 50 feet or less, the AA-12 can accurately fire twenty 3' shells with 15 '00' buckshot pellets each in 4 seconds, totaling 300 pellets weighing about 37 ounces.
At the full cyclic rate of 750 rounds/minute, the SAW can fire 50 5.56mm bullets in 4 seconds, weighing about 7 ounces. Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines. And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.I am always referring to the sustained rate of fire that the weapons can operate at without barrel failure or without cooking off a round in the chamber.
All parts in the AA-12 are beefed up stainless steel and no rate of fire has yet caused barrel failure. The M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.I am not using the term 'sustained' as a synonym for support or supply or logistics. Using a weapon with as many capacities as the AA-12 may well require re-inventing the wheel when it comes to defining fireteams and squads, support and supply and logistics. But I weighed about 400 of my green tipped Lake City Arsenal M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo and they weigh about ten pounds.
A lot of that weight is brass. A 200 round belt of them would weigh over 5 lbs.
By restricting the SAW to the sustained rate of 85 rounds per minute to avoid barrel changes or overheating, it would take a SAW 2.3 minutes to fire a 200 round belt, and the 200 bullets weigh about 28 ounces. That is right: 5 pounds of belt to fire 28 ounces of bullets in 2.3 minutes. There are about 28 ounces of '00' buckshot pellets in 15 3' shells (about two 8-shell magazines or 75% of a 20-shell drum, weighing about five pounds total weight). The AA-12 can fire these 28 ounces of '00' buckshot pellets from a 5 pound drum in three seconds. And with no barrel changes from overheating!
Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.Agreed.
The AA-12 will never, ever be used as a breacher shotgun or for mundane use. The AA-12 offers a higher volume of suppression fire than the SAW and it weighs 7 pounds less than the SAW. A 20-shell drum weighs the same as a 200 round SAW belt, but the 20-shell drum has 33% more projectile weight than the belt has, and it can be fired in 4 seconds versus 2.3 minutes for the belt when fired at 85 rounds per minute. And the AA-12 barrel never needs changing from overheating! The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.Agreed.
The M249 weighs 22 pounds when loaded with a 200 round belt. The IAR will weigh 12.5 pounds unloaded using 2-pound, 30-round magazines, but the IAR has no barrel changes to overcome heat and so it has to fire more slowly than the SAW.
The 10 pound AA-12 with a 5-pound loaded drum is a far better option for the Marine Corps than the IAR. And as I wrote, perhaps fireteams could use the AA-12 to supplement the SAW, rather than replace it.As always, I appreciate your expert opinions, m24shooter.
I have watched those great YouTube videos about the AA-12 for about a year, and I kept wanting a more exact answer if I could legally own an AA-12 fully automatic shotgun, and if so, what is the price of an AA-12?From Western Firearms Company: In 1986, the United States government banned the future importation and domestic manufacture of machine guns for civilian consumption, and the already limited inventory of Class 3 weapons has since diminished substantially. At a rate now more accelerated than ever, these weapons are ending up in the hands of collectors who have no intention of ever selling them. The effect is twofold: Class 3 arms are growing increasingly scarce, and their prices are rising accordingly. Further Federal bans in 1989 and 1994 relating to semiautomatic clones of military weapons have spurred similar trends in that arena as well. Thus, the price of a quality, collector-grade Class 3 or semiautomatic weapon has spiraled beyond the comprehension of the average buyer.Mr.
Jerry Babar, President/CEO of Military Police Systems, Inc. (MPS, Inc.) of Piney Flats, Tennessee and developer of the AA-12 Shotgun, kindly answered my questions today, 23 Feb 2009, which I transcribed (possibly with some minor errors) as follows: 'I am returning your call about the AA-12. By the 1986 Federal law, any machine guns made prior to 19 May 1986 are transferable, and there are 400,000 legal machine guns in the United States.
Famed AA-12 Shotgun is Now Available for Civilian Consumption. Melbourne, FL –-(Ammoland.com)-Sol Invictus Arms with Tactical Superiority, Inc. Is proud to announce the release of the AA-12. SALE: Chinese SKS Type 56 Rifles - $299.99. Customer Service. Kalashnikov USA KS12 12GA 10rd Magazine Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun W/ FDE Furniture and Side Folding / Collapsible Stock - KS-12TSFSFDE. (12) Legacy Sports (37) Linyi Junxing Cheetah (3) LKCI (8) Marlin (2) Maverick Arms (3) Midland Arms.
Any machine guns made after 19 May 1986 are not transferable to civilians and cannot be built by or owned (inaudible) by civilians. And in fact, if I ever get my license up, I can assure you that I can't even have them AA-12's.
I can't keep them in stock or transfer them, or somebody will have my license. There are 19, almost 20 AA-12 guns built right now and they are with various military operations for evaluation, and they are involved with some of the manufacture of them AA-12's. Watch the Military Channel in June 2009 for the new Robot video that we just did. It is a really good 20-30 minute video. It will be under the 'Ultimate Weapons' program.
Also, the New Yorker magazine has a six page article on us. I appreciate you for calling. Thanks alot.' Babar is a very nice and a very smart man. I appreciate that Mr. Babar returned my call while I was away.has collected some excellent text about Mr.
Jerry Babar:Finally in 1987, Max Atchisson, broke and in danger of losing everything, sold the rights to the AA-12 to Mr. Jerry Baber, of MPS, Inc., in Tennessee. A brilliant engineer with a long history in the firearms business, Baber is also one of the world's foremost experts in high-precision cast steel parts. Along with his partner, Boje Corneal, an equally talented German mechanical engineer, Jerry Baber began production of a small number of pre-production samples of the AA-12 for test purposes using Atchisson's drawings.During the interim, Baber and Corneal had businesses to operate, and Jerry Baber made parts for 39 gun companies at his B&H Precision foundry. In spite of their full schedules, Baber and Corneal continued work on the AA-12, finding more problems at each step of the way. Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns.
I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. With the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR.
Jus my humble opinions. Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns. I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. With the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR.
Jus my humble opinions. I don't think the AA-12 will ever go to far.
It is too big and bulky.Agreed. They claim it can be fired from a HMMWV. Well so can an M2, but it isn't exactly ergonomic. The individual soldier is going to be limited on the number of mags that can be carried simply on the bulk of the mags.It also states that it 'fills a void' but I have to ask if maybe that void exists for a reason.I don't see it changing much of anything. You have a quick firing shotgun that can be reloaded quickly. It still suffers from limited range, and that quick firing isn't supported by the limitation on the amount of ammo that can be carried.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere.
But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. Those several YouTube videos about the AA12 really show just what void in our combat capability needs to be filled. A picture is worth a thousand words.Those 3' FRAG 12 shotgun shells explode with about an 18 foot sphere of shrapnel. The AA12 is a large bore weapon that is designed to have virtually no recoil. The AA12 has virtually no muzzle rise, so it stays on target each time and every time. In the video you can sense what is happening inside the room when 20 of these FRAG 12's fly 120 yards in through the small window one right after the other, all exploding within 4 seconds.
And the FRAG 12's fly true for up to 175 meters, extending the range of what was thought possible for a shotgun, and they explode with genuine ferociousness.And that is the void the AA12 and the FRAG 12 combo fills. The AA12 is a force multiplier. Soldiers with AA12's will have the advantage in accurate firepower when enemies try to shoot it out with them.The FRAG 12's can explode on impact or explode at a pre-determined distance by setting a fuse/timer. So a soldier with an AA12 and FRAG 12 drums could spray an arc with FRAG 12's that rain down shrapnel, for example, at 80 yards or 100 yards or 120 yards or 150 yards.
Enemies trying to rush a soldier may try to hide behind objects, but they will have to hide under something also, or they will expire. One of our soldiers could control large areas of real estate with an AA12 and some drums of FRAG 12's. There are also armor piercing FRAG 12's.And remember, Mr. Jerry Babar has already demonstrated these AA12 and FRAG 12 combos mounted on his unmanned robotic AutoCopter Gunships for Blackwater, as the Ultimate Weapons program on the Military Channel in June 2009 will show.Jerry Babar said, 'Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world. There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it.
He just cannot do it. There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path.'
The AA12 is made from 7 types of stainless steel, making it practically maintenance and lubrication free. The fine carbon residue from firing settles everywhere in the gun, and it lubricates everything moving. This carbon is never cleaned. And the AA12 has big beefy parts, big heavy-duty parts to last without maintenance. The AA12 has the ability to operate in all weather extremes, from the Arctic environment to high salt content areas to jungles, to not even being affected if it were dropped in the ocean and used later on. The AA12 CQB model with the 13' barrel has the same 33' length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds.
That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 '00' buckshot pellets in 4 seconds. Here is what the marketers are doing with the AA-12 linkage, the Frag 12 can be fired from any shotgun. A S-12 with a barrel Comp and a Topmaul Buffer pad will have a lower recoil than without, still had a recoil but at 1/5 the price. I believe the void exists because of the slow loading ability of the tradutional shotgun and I don't feel the AA-12 and solved that problem due to the way a fresh magazine is loaded, maybe that problem can be solved with training not sure.Just don't see the linkage between ammunition any shotgun can shoot and a perticular shotgun. Unless future weapons did not have enough for an epsidode so they combined the two to make the segment in the program.
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How isn't the void for something that makes an 18' shrapnel area filled by the MK 19?It doesn't. The XM29 was a 20mm grenade launcher.
All kinds of super trooper stuff. And it was pretty much left to wither. Part of the reason was that a 20mm GL just isn't that impressive. And those rounds were intended to do a lot more than the 12ga HE rounds.So if it couldn't make it, I don't see how this will.It is still a shotgun. It still suffers from relatively short range.
It still has bulky ammunition that limits the amount that can be carried.Within a narrow niche, it is great. But it is filling a void that isn't much in demand and still has a lot of downside to it.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. M24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr. Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week.
I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.I just realized something today. Ever since 1972, the AA-12 has been designed to be a military shotgun only. Since 1987, Mr. Jerry Babar has worked to get the AA-12 operating perfectly, and he succeeded in 2004.
It occured to me that years ago, Mr. Babar could have quit his determination to perfect this fully automatic shotgun that only the military can have. Babar could have instead sold it to the public as a semi-automatic shotgun. Babar himself cannot even own or stock or transfer any AA-12's due to the 1986 federal law banning the transfer to civilians of imported or domestically manufactured machine guns made after 19 May 1986.It seems to me that Mr. Babar has an all or nothing determination to get the AA-12 accepted by the military procurement system because he is a true American patriot and he wants to save American lives.
And he genuinely believes that the AA-12 and the FRAG 12's were made for each other.Obviously the FRAG 12's can also be fired from any other 3' chambered shotgun, which is good. And the Saiga-12 is a very dependable semi-automatic Kalashnikov shotgun. If we ever go to war with Russia, we will undoubtedly face a few of the Saiga-12's. Babar is now in his 70's. I hope that Mr.
Babar realizes his dream of getting his AA-12's in the hands of American soldiers. This Kentuckian admires the man from Piney Flats, Tennessee.I think that Blackwater admires Mr.
Blackwater uploaded the video to YouTube. M24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr.
Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week.
I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.I have no doubt that they might have some utility. And the safety certification is one step in the process; it can have that certification but that does not in itself indicate that it should be fielded.To say the AA12 is filling a void is a little bit of a stretch. Kind of like someone marketing a titanium boarding axe by saying it fills a void in current military hardware. Is there a reason that void is there? While it would be useful in at least some applications it is a niche weapon.
It is still a shotgun. It still has some of the same limitations as other shotguns. Baber has.a remote-control mini-helicopter called the AutoCopter, which holds two AA-12's and can carry the robots into battle. 'It delivers the lead equivalent of 132 M16s,' says Baber.A weapon that will fire 20 x #4 Buckshot 12 gauge shells in 4 seconds while spraying 540.24 caliber pellets is bringing the smoke.The AA12 CQB model with the 13' barrel has the same 33' length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds. That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 '00' buckshot pellets in 4 seconds.Jerry Babar said, 'Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world.
There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it. He just cannot do it.
There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path.' We have tens of thousands of Benelli M1014 Combat shotguns, and Remington M870 and Mossberg 500/590 shotguns in service that are far less effective than the AA-12. There are twenty AA-12's being evaluated right now by various military operations. But replacing pump and semi-automatic shotguns was never what I thought could be replaced or supplemented by the fully automatic AA-12 - it is the M249 SAW. Before anyone bursts a vein, read below and consider the current efforts by the Marine Corps and the Army to reduce the weight of the SAW, and that the M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds.
The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.The AA-12 needs no barrel changes to control heat. A single AA-12 has fired over 5000 shells without lubrication, cleaning, or maintaintenance. The cyclic rate of the AA-12 is 300 shells per minute. The man in takes his time and still fires two 20 shell drums and three 8 shell magazines, totaling 64 shells in less than a minute. If he had used five 20 shell drums, he could have fired 100 shells in less than one minute.That would be 2700.24 caliber #4 buckshot pellets fired in one minute from the AA-12, compared to 85.223 caliber/5.56mm rounds per minute of sustained fire from the M249 SAW. That is 3% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery. Even if a SAW could fire its cyclic rate of 750 rounds per minute without barrel failure, that would only be 25% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery.So Long, SAW?
By Matthew Cox of The Marine Corps Times, 15 Sep 2008,Marine infantry units soon may replace their light machine guns with new automatic rifles designed to help gunners move faster on assaults. The plan is to buy 4,100 IARs and reduce the number of SAWs in the Corps from 10,000 to 8,000.Weapons officials at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., are testing magazine-fed weapons from at least six gun makers in a search for a lighter alternative to the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, which weighs close to 17 pounds unloaded.
At the squad level, “the biggest hindrance to being able to effectively fire and maneuver is the weight of the SAW,” said Patrick Cantwell, capability integration officer for the Infantry Automatic Rifle program at SysCom.The winning IAR design — which the Corps wants to weigh no more than 12.5 pounds — could begin replacing the SAW in infantry squads as early as next year. “We see this being the automatic rifleman’s primary weapon,” Cantwell said. “We obviously want it as soon as possible, but we are looking at sometime in 2009.” The M249 has been in service with the Corps since the mid-1980s. The standard model weighs about 22 pounds when loaded with a 200-round belt of 5.56mm ammunition.Despite its weight, the weapon spits out up to 750 rounds per minute, providing small units with a tremendous rate of sustained automatic fire. Note: the M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute.Currently, Marine and Army infantry squads equip their fire teams with one M249 each. The difference is that Marine squads have three fire teams, and Army squads have two fire teams, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of the Infantry Center’s Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Georgia.
“It’s really all about firepower. The Marine Corps has a 13-man squad; we have a nine-man squad — that’s a four-man difference.”Army infantry officials, however, do want to find a replacement for the M249. “We recognize that we need to find another solution for the light machine gun in the squad,” Radcliffe said. One option for replacing the SAW could be the MK46 — a newer version of the M249 with the same cyclic rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute and a reduced weight of 15.4 pounds unloaded, which was adopted by U.S. Special Operations Command in 2000.
The standard model M249 SAW weighs 16.8 pounds unloaded. The paratrooper model M249 SAW weighs 15.95 pounds unloaded.The Marine Corps has been talking about the need for a lightweight IAR since 2001.
One of the biggest changes Marine gunners will notice about the IAR is that it’s magazine-fed only, compared with the M249’s belted ammunition. The M249 also can fire standard-issue magazines. Early on in the program, the requirement called for the IAR to use detachable, 100-round magazines. Now, Marine weapons officials are requiring only that it be able to run on the same 30-round magazines infantrymen use in their M16A4 rifles and M4 carbines.Army infantry officials maintain that switching from a 200-round belt to a 30-round magazine would cause Army squads to lose the high rate of fire they have with the M249. “Volume of fire is important,” Radcliffe said.
“The Marine Corps thinks it can get that out of a magazine-fed weapon. We don’t think the Army can.”The M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes, Cantwell said.Unlike the M249 — which relies on a quick-change, spare barrel to keep the heat down — the IAR will have no spare barrel, Cantwell said. It will rely on the slower rate of fire and other features to manage the heat.
Cantwell conceded that “there is a sacrifice of the volume of fire,” but the ability to move fast and fire accurately outweighs it. With the IAR, “you have a more maneuverable weapon that, we hope, allows the Marine gunner to be more effective.”To my way of thinking, the AA-12 is lighter, is more manueverable, is as accurate, has the same effective CQB range, and has four to thirty times more sustainable on target lead delivery as the M249 SAW, the MK46 or the IAR. Plus the AA-12 can fire 20 High Explosive FRAG 12 grenades through one window in four seconds. Sorry, but the idea of replacing the SAW with a shotgun is one of the most insane things I think I've ever heard.First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role.
What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street? Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines.
And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.Third, armor penetration.
How well does #4 buck penetrate armor?Fourth, barrier penetration. How well does #4 penetrate car doors, auto glass, or light cover?Fifth, terminal ballistics. How does #4 compare to 5.56 at ranges beyond 25-30 yards?
Let's go up to 00. How does it compare?Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.Supplementing/replacing the current inventory of shotguns with the AA12 was one thing. Replacing the SAW with it is something else entirely.I think you've bought into the hype and marketing a little too much.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere.
But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role. What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street?
Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?I have read somewhere on this forum that very few infantry CQB shots are kill shots past 100 yards. The AA-12 is accurate to 175 meters with the FRAG 12's and good sights. (I am not stepping on that EOTech/Aimpoint/Trijicon mine again.) Because the AA-12 has 10% of the recoil of other shotguns, and virtually no muzzle rise, it can fire a stream of 20 FRAG 12's through a window of that building down the street faster than calling the BGs cell phone number.' Shotgun' is somewhat of a misnomer for the AA-12.
After all, slugs are simply large bore bullets. With an improved cylinder choke, the AA-12 can fire Brenneke slugs accurately to about 60 yards. With a rifled choke, the AA-12 should easily be accurate to over 100 yards with Remington Core-Lokt sabots (which have taken deer with one shot at 175 yards).
I am NOT suggesting that the AA-12 be used as a fully automatic slug gun at intermediate distances. The M16 is for intermediate distances. I am simply reminding readers that a variety of shotgun shell ammunition for various distances and purposes can be carried for the AA-12. For 50 feet or less, the AA-12 can accurately fire twenty 3' shells with 15 '00' buckshot pellets each in 4 seconds, totaling 300 pellets weighing about 37 ounces.
At the full cyclic rate of 750 rounds/minute, the SAW can fire 50 5.56mm bullets in 4 seconds, weighing about 7 ounces. Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines. And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.I am always referring to the sustained rate of fire that the weapons can operate at without barrel failure or without cooking off a round in the chamber.
All parts in the AA-12 are beefed up stainless steel and no rate of fire has yet caused barrel failure. The M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.I am not using the term 'sustained' as a synonym for support or supply or logistics. Using a weapon with as many capacities as the AA-12 may well require re-inventing the wheel when it comes to defining fireteams and squads, support and supply and logistics. But I weighed about 400 of my green tipped Lake City Arsenal M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo and they weigh about ten pounds.
A lot of that weight is brass. A 200 round belt of them would weigh over 5 lbs.
By restricting the SAW to the sustained rate of 85 rounds per minute to avoid barrel changes or overheating, it would take a SAW 2.3 minutes to fire a 200 round belt, and the 200 bullets weigh about 28 ounces. That is right: 5 pounds of belt to fire 28 ounces of bullets in 2.3 minutes. There are about 28 ounces of '00' buckshot pellets in 15 3' shells (about two 8-shell magazines or 75% of a 20-shell drum, weighing about five pounds total weight). The AA-12 can fire these 28 ounces of '00' buckshot pellets from a 5 pound drum in three seconds. And with no barrel changes from overheating!
Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.Agreed.
The AA-12 will never, ever be used as a breacher shotgun or for mundane use. The AA-12 offers a higher volume of suppression fire than the SAW and it weighs 7 pounds less than the SAW. A 20-shell drum weighs the same as a 200 round SAW belt, but the 20-shell drum has 33% more projectile weight than the belt has, and it can be fired in 4 seconds versus 2.3 minutes for the belt when fired at 85 rounds per minute. And the AA-12 barrel never needs changing from overheating! The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.Agreed.
The M249 weighs 22 pounds when loaded with a 200 round belt. The IAR will weigh 12.5 pounds unloaded using 2-pound, 30-round magazines, but the IAR has no barrel changes to overcome heat and so it has to fire more slowly than the SAW.
The 10 pound AA-12 with a 5-pound loaded drum is a far better option for the Marine Corps than the IAR. And as I wrote, perhaps fireteams could use the AA-12 to supplement the SAW, rather than replace it.As always, I appreciate your expert opinions, m24shooter.
...">Auto Assault 12 Shotgun For Sale(24.04.2020)I have watched those great YouTube videos about the AA-12 for about a year, and I kept wanting a more exact answer if I could legally own an AA-12 fully automatic shotgun, and if so, what is the price of an AA-12?From Western Firearms Company: In 1986, the United States government banned the future importation and domestic manufacture of machine guns for civilian consumption, and the already limited inventory of Class 3 weapons has since diminished substantially. At a rate now more accelerated than ever, these weapons are ending up in the hands of collectors who have no intention of ever selling them. The effect is twofold: Class 3 arms are growing increasingly scarce, and their prices are rising accordingly. Further Federal bans in 1989 and 1994 relating to semiautomatic clones of military weapons have spurred similar trends in that arena as well. Thus, the price of a quality, collector-grade Class 3 or semiautomatic weapon has spiraled beyond the comprehension of the average buyer.Mr.
Jerry Babar, President/CEO of Military Police Systems, Inc. (MPS, Inc.) of Piney Flats, Tennessee and developer of the AA-12 Shotgun, kindly answered my questions today, 23 Feb 2009, which I transcribed (possibly with some minor errors) as follows: 'I am returning your call about the AA-12. By the 1986 Federal law, any machine guns made prior to 19 May 1986 are transferable, and there are 400,000 legal machine guns in the United States.
Famed AA-12 Shotgun is Now Available for Civilian Consumption. Melbourne, FL –-(Ammoland.com)-Sol Invictus Arms with Tactical Superiority, Inc. Is proud to announce the release of the AA-12. SALE: Chinese SKS Type 56 Rifles - $299.99. Customer Service. Kalashnikov USA KS12 12GA 10rd Magazine Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun W/ FDE Furniture and Side Folding / Collapsible Stock - KS-12TSFSFDE. (12) Legacy Sports (37) Linyi Junxing Cheetah (3) LKCI (8) Marlin (2) Maverick Arms (3) Midland Arms.
Any machine guns made after 19 May 1986 are not transferable to civilians and cannot be built by or owned (inaudible) by civilians. And in fact, if I ever get my license up, I can assure you that I can't even have them AA-12's.
I can't keep them in stock or transfer them, or somebody will have my license. There are 19, almost 20 AA-12 guns built right now and they are with various military operations for evaluation, and they are involved with some of the manufacture of them AA-12's. Watch the Military Channel in June 2009 for the new Robot video that we just did. It is a really good 20-30 minute video. It will be under the 'Ultimate Weapons' program.
Also, the New Yorker magazine has a six page article on us. I appreciate you for calling. Thanks alot.' Babar is a very nice and a very smart man. I appreciate that Mr. Babar returned my call while I was away.has collected some excellent text about Mr.
Jerry Babar:Finally in 1987, Max Atchisson, broke and in danger of losing everything, sold the rights to the AA-12 to Mr. Jerry Baber, of MPS, Inc., in Tennessee. A brilliant engineer with a long history in the firearms business, Baber is also one of the world's foremost experts in high-precision cast steel parts. Along with his partner, Boje Corneal, an equally talented German mechanical engineer, Jerry Baber began production of a small number of pre-production samples of the AA-12 for test purposes using Atchisson's drawings.During the interim, Baber and Corneal had businesses to operate, and Jerry Baber made parts for 39 gun companies at his B&H Precision foundry. In spite of their full schedules, Baber and Corneal continued work on the AA-12, finding more problems at each step of the way. Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns.
I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. With the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR.
Jus my humble opinions. Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns. I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. With the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR.
Jus my humble opinions. I don't think the AA-12 will ever go to far.
It is too big and bulky.Agreed. They claim it can be fired from a HMMWV. Well so can an M2, but it isn't exactly ergonomic. The individual soldier is going to be limited on the number of mags that can be carried simply on the bulk of the mags.It also states that it 'fills a void' but I have to ask if maybe that void exists for a reason.I don't see it changing much of anything. You have a quick firing shotgun that can be reloaded quickly. It still suffers from limited range, and that quick firing isn't supported by the limitation on the amount of ammo that can be carried.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere.
But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. Those several YouTube videos about the AA12 really show just what void in our combat capability needs to be filled. A picture is worth a thousand words.Those 3' FRAG 12 shotgun shells explode with about an 18 foot sphere of shrapnel. The AA12 is a large bore weapon that is designed to have virtually no recoil. The AA12 has virtually no muzzle rise, so it stays on target each time and every time. In the video you can sense what is happening inside the room when 20 of these FRAG 12's fly 120 yards in through the small window one right after the other, all exploding within 4 seconds.
And the FRAG 12's fly true for up to 175 meters, extending the range of what was thought possible for a shotgun, and they explode with genuine ferociousness.And that is the void the AA12 and the FRAG 12 combo fills. The AA12 is a force multiplier. Soldiers with AA12's will have the advantage in accurate firepower when enemies try to shoot it out with them.The FRAG 12's can explode on impact or explode at a pre-determined distance by setting a fuse/timer. So a soldier with an AA12 and FRAG 12 drums could spray an arc with FRAG 12's that rain down shrapnel, for example, at 80 yards or 100 yards or 120 yards or 150 yards.
Enemies trying to rush a soldier may try to hide behind objects, but they will have to hide under something also, or they will expire. One of our soldiers could control large areas of real estate with an AA12 and some drums of FRAG 12's. There are also armor piercing FRAG 12's.And remember, Mr. Jerry Babar has already demonstrated these AA12 and FRAG 12 combos mounted on his unmanned robotic AutoCopter Gunships for Blackwater, as the Ultimate Weapons program on the Military Channel in June 2009 will show.Jerry Babar said, 'Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world. There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it.
He just cannot do it. There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path.'
The AA12 is made from 7 types of stainless steel, making it practically maintenance and lubrication free. The fine carbon residue from firing settles everywhere in the gun, and it lubricates everything moving. This carbon is never cleaned. And the AA12 has big beefy parts, big heavy-duty parts to last without maintenance. The AA12 has the ability to operate in all weather extremes, from the Arctic environment to high salt content areas to jungles, to not even being affected if it were dropped in the ocean and used later on. The AA12 CQB model with the 13' barrel has the same 33' length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds.
That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 '00' buckshot pellets in 4 seconds. Here is what the marketers are doing with the AA-12 linkage, the Frag 12 can be fired from any shotgun. A S-12 with a barrel Comp and a Topmaul Buffer pad will have a lower recoil than without, still had a recoil but at 1/5 the price. I believe the void exists because of the slow loading ability of the tradutional shotgun and I don't feel the AA-12 and solved that problem due to the way a fresh magazine is loaded, maybe that problem can be solved with training not sure.Just don't see the linkage between ammunition any shotgun can shoot and a perticular shotgun. Unless future weapons did not have enough for an epsidode so they combined the two to make the segment in the program.
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How isn't the void for something that makes an 18' shrapnel area filled by the MK 19?It doesn't. The XM29 was a 20mm grenade launcher.
All kinds of super trooper stuff. And it was pretty much left to wither. Part of the reason was that a 20mm GL just isn't that impressive. And those rounds were intended to do a lot more than the 12ga HE rounds.So if it couldn't make it, I don't see how this will.It is still a shotgun. It still suffers from relatively short range.
It still has bulky ammunition that limits the amount that can be carried.Within a narrow niche, it is great. But it is filling a void that isn't much in demand and still has a lot of downside to it.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. M24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr. Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week.
I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.I just realized something today. Ever since 1972, the AA-12 has been designed to be a military shotgun only. Since 1987, Mr. Jerry Babar has worked to get the AA-12 operating perfectly, and he succeeded in 2004.
It occured to me that years ago, Mr. Babar could have quit his determination to perfect this fully automatic shotgun that only the military can have. Babar could have instead sold it to the public as a semi-automatic shotgun. Babar himself cannot even own or stock or transfer any AA-12's due to the 1986 federal law banning the transfer to civilians of imported or domestically manufactured machine guns made after 19 May 1986.It seems to me that Mr. Babar has an all or nothing determination to get the AA-12 accepted by the military procurement system because he is a true American patriot and he wants to save American lives.
And he genuinely believes that the AA-12 and the FRAG 12's were made for each other.Obviously the FRAG 12's can also be fired from any other 3' chambered shotgun, which is good. And the Saiga-12 is a very dependable semi-automatic Kalashnikov shotgun. If we ever go to war with Russia, we will undoubtedly face a few of the Saiga-12's. Babar is now in his 70's. I hope that Mr.
Babar realizes his dream of getting his AA-12's in the hands of American soldiers. This Kentuckian admires the man from Piney Flats, Tennessee.I think that Blackwater admires Mr.
Blackwater uploaded the video to YouTube. M24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr.
Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week.
I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.I have no doubt that they might have some utility. And the safety certification is one step in the process; it can have that certification but that does not in itself indicate that it should be fielded.To say the AA12 is filling a void is a little bit of a stretch. Kind of like someone marketing a titanium boarding axe by saying it fills a void in current military hardware. Is there a reason that void is there? While it would be useful in at least some applications it is a niche weapon.
It is still a shotgun. It still has some of the same limitations as other shotguns. Baber has.a remote-control mini-helicopter called the AutoCopter, which holds two AA-12's and can carry the robots into battle. 'It delivers the lead equivalent of 132 M16s,' says Baber.A weapon that will fire 20 x #4 Buckshot 12 gauge shells in 4 seconds while spraying 540.24 caliber pellets is bringing the smoke.The AA12 CQB model with the 13' barrel has the same 33' length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds. That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 '00' buckshot pellets in 4 seconds.Jerry Babar said, 'Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world.
There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it. He just cannot do it.
There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path.' We have tens of thousands of Benelli M1014 Combat shotguns, and Remington M870 and Mossberg 500/590 shotguns in service that are far less effective than the AA-12. There are twenty AA-12's being evaluated right now by various military operations. But replacing pump and semi-automatic shotguns was never what I thought could be replaced or supplemented by the fully automatic AA-12 - it is the M249 SAW. Before anyone bursts a vein, read below and consider the current efforts by the Marine Corps and the Army to reduce the weight of the SAW, and that the M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds.
The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.The AA-12 needs no barrel changes to control heat. A single AA-12 has fired over 5000 shells without lubrication, cleaning, or maintaintenance. The cyclic rate of the AA-12 is 300 shells per minute. The man in takes his time and still fires two 20 shell drums and three 8 shell magazines, totaling 64 shells in less than a minute. If he had used five 20 shell drums, he could have fired 100 shells in less than one minute.That would be 2700.24 caliber #4 buckshot pellets fired in one minute from the AA-12, compared to 85.223 caliber/5.56mm rounds per minute of sustained fire from the M249 SAW. That is 3% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery. Even if a SAW could fire its cyclic rate of 750 rounds per minute without barrel failure, that would only be 25% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery.So Long, SAW?
By Matthew Cox of The Marine Corps Times, 15 Sep 2008,Marine infantry units soon may replace their light machine guns with new automatic rifles designed to help gunners move faster on assaults. The plan is to buy 4,100 IARs and reduce the number of SAWs in the Corps from 10,000 to 8,000.Weapons officials at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., are testing magazine-fed weapons from at least six gun makers in a search for a lighter alternative to the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, which weighs close to 17 pounds unloaded.
At the squad level, “the biggest hindrance to being able to effectively fire and maneuver is the weight of the SAW,” said Patrick Cantwell, capability integration officer for the Infantry Automatic Rifle program at SysCom.The winning IAR design — which the Corps wants to weigh no more than 12.5 pounds — could begin replacing the SAW in infantry squads as early as next year. “We see this being the automatic rifleman’s primary weapon,” Cantwell said. “We obviously want it as soon as possible, but we are looking at sometime in 2009.” The M249 has been in service with the Corps since the mid-1980s. The standard model weighs about 22 pounds when loaded with a 200-round belt of 5.56mm ammunition.Despite its weight, the weapon spits out up to 750 rounds per minute, providing small units with a tremendous rate of sustained automatic fire. Note: the M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute.Currently, Marine and Army infantry squads equip their fire teams with one M249 each. The difference is that Marine squads have three fire teams, and Army squads have two fire teams, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of the Infantry Center’s Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Georgia.
“It’s really all about firepower. The Marine Corps has a 13-man squad; we have a nine-man squad — that’s a four-man difference.”Army infantry officials, however, do want to find a replacement for the M249. “We recognize that we need to find another solution for the light machine gun in the squad,” Radcliffe said. One option for replacing the SAW could be the MK46 — a newer version of the M249 with the same cyclic rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute and a reduced weight of 15.4 pounds unloaded, which was adopted by U.S. Special Operations Command in 2000.
The standard model M249 SAW weighs 16.8 pounds unloaded. The paratrooper model M249 SAW weighs 15.95 pounds unloaded.The Marine Corps has been talking about the need for a lightweight IAR since 2001.
One of the biggest changes Marine gunners will notice about the IAR is that it’s magazine-fed only, compared with the M249’s belted ammunition. The M249 also can fire standard-issue magazines. Early on in the program, the requirement called for the IAR to use detachable, 100-round magazines. Now, Marine weapons officials are requiring only that it be able to run on the same 30-round magazines infantrymen use in their M16A4 rifles and M4 carbines.Army infantry officials maintain that switching from a 200-round belt to a 30-round magazine would cause Army squads to lose the high rate of fire they have with the M249. “Volume of fire is important,” Radcliffe said.
“The Marine Corps thinks it can get that out of a magazine-fed weapon. We don’t think the Army can.”The M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes, Cantwell said.Unlike the M249 — which relies on a quick-change, spare barrel to keep the heat down — the IAR will have no spare barrel, Cantwell said. It will rely on the slower rate of fire and other features to manage the heat.
Cantwell conceded that “there is a sacrifice of the volume of fire,” but the ability to move fast and fire accurately outweighs it. With the IAR, “you have a more maneuverable weapon that, we hope, allows the Marine gunner to be more effective.”To my way of thinking, the AA-12 is lighter, is more manueverable, is as accurate, has the same effective CQB range, and has four to thirty times more sustainable on target lead delivery as the M249 SAW, the MK46 or the IAR. Plus the AA-12 can fire 20 High Explosive FRAG 12 grenades through one window in four seconds. Sorry, but the idea of replacing the SAW with a shotgun is one of the most insane things I think I've ever heard.First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role.
What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street? Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines.
And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.Third, armor penetration.
How well does #4 buck penetrate armor?Fourth, barrier penetration. How well does #4 penetrate car doors, auto glass, or light cover?Fifth, terminal ballistics. How does #4 compare to 5.56 at ranges beyond 25-30 yards?
Let's go up to 00. How does it compare?Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.Supplementing/replacing the current inventory of shotguns with the AA12 was one thing. Replacing the SAW with it is something else entirely.I think you've bought into the hype and marketing a little too much.You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere.
But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass. First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role. What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street?
Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?I have read somewhere on this forum that very few infantry CQB shots are kill shots past 100 yards. The AA-12 is accurate to 175 meters with the FRAG 12's and good sights. (I am not stepping on that EOTech/Aimpoint/Trijicon mine again.) Because the AA-12 has 10% of the recoil of other shotguns, and virtually no muzzle rise, it can fire a stream of 20 FRAG 12's through a window of that building down the street faster than calling the BGs cell phone number.' Shotgun' is somewhat of a misnomer for the AA-12.
After all, slugs are simply large bore bullets. With an improved cylinder choke, the AA-12 can fire Brenneke slugs accurately to about 60 yards. With a rifled choke, the AA-12 should easily be accurate to over 100 yards with Remington Core-Lokt sabots (which have taken deer with one shot at 175 yards).
I am NOT suggesting that the AA-12 be used as a fully automatic slug gun at intermediate distances. The M16 is for intermediate distances. I am simply reminding readers that a variety of shotgun shell ammunition for various distances and purposes can be carried for the AA-12. For 50 feet or less, the AA-12 can accurately fire twenty 3' shells with 15 '00' buckshot pellets each in 4 seconds, totaling 300 pellets weighing about 37 ounces.
At the full cyclic rate of 750 rounds/minute, the SAW can fire 50 5.56mm bullets in 4 seconds, weighing about 7 ounces. Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines. And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.I am always referring to the sustained rate of fire that the weapons can operate at without barrel failure or without cooking off a round in the chamber.
All parts in the AA-12 are beefed up stainless steel and no rate of fire has yet caused barrel failure. The M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.I am not using the term 'sustained' as a synonym for support or supply or logistics. Using a weapon with as many capacities as the AA-12 may well require re-inventing the wheel when it comes to defining fireteams and squads, support and supply and logistics. But I weighed about 400 of my green tipped Lake City Arsenal M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo and they weigh about ten pounds.
A lot of that weight is brass. A 200 round belt of them would weigh over 5 lbs.
By restricting the SAW to the sustained rate of 85 rounds per minute to avoid barrel changes or overheating, it would take a SAW 2.3 minutes to fire a 200 round belt, and the 200 bullets weigh about 28 ounces. That is right: 5 pounds of belt to fire 28 ounces of bullets in 2.3 minutes. There are about 28 ounces of '00' buckshot pellets in 15 3' shells (about two 8-shell magazines or 75% of a 20-shell drum, weighing about five pounds total weight). The AA-12 can fire these 28 ounces of '00' buckshot pellets from a 5 pound drum in three seconds. And with no barrel changes from overheating!
Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.Agreed.
The AA-12 will never, ever be used as a breacher shotgun or for mundane use. The AA-12 offers a higher volume of suppression fire than the SAW and it weighs 7 pounds less than the SAW. A 20-shell drum weighs the same as a 200 round SAW belt, but the 20-shell drum has 33% more projectile weight than the belt has, and it can be fired in 4 seconds versus 2.3 minutes for the belt when fired at 85 rounds per minute. And the AA-12 barrel never needs changing from overheating! The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.Agreed.
The M249 weighs 22 pounds when loaded with a 200 round belt. The IAR will weigh 12.5 pounds unloaded using 2-pound, 30-round magazines, but the IAR has no barrel changes to overcome heat and so it has to fire more slowly than the SAW.
The 10 pound AA-12 with a 5-pound loaded drum is a far better option for the Marine Corps than the IAR. And as I wrote, perhaps fireteams could use the AA-12 to supplement the SAW, rather than replace it.As always, I appreciate your expert opinions, m24shooter.
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